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  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 601

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    http://www.tvw.org/scripts/iframe_video.php?eventID=2015010201&start=3284&stop=3490

    Definitely worth watching. Doesn’t look too promising for DFS in Washington.

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    Democrat Steve Conway looked so lost.

    I think most everyone here started on season long fantasy leagues. I would be willing to bet that over 80% would state DFS actually takes more skill to compete than SLFS.

  • cb35

    2013 FFFC Finalist, 2013 DFFC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    don’t want to sound like a jerk but Noah from the FSTA wasn’t very clear with regards to daily and the skills that would differentiate vs a game of chance. why is he bringing up kickers in the snow – totally whiffed against the old guy.

  • stlcardinals84

    Leading RG Analyst

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    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

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    Steve Conway is on the level with the bum-brained professor from Chris Prince’s ESPN piece.

    Anyhow, someone really needs to clearly explain it to them. As much as I admire Noah going there to attempt to do that, the skill-based nature wasn’t emphasized well enough.

  • Battery1975

    Anyone else concerned that if they made season long legal and dfs illegal that other states might follow suit?

  • cb35

    2013 FFFC Finalist, 2013 DFFC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @Battery1975 said...

    Anyone else concerned that if they made season long legal and dfs illegal that other states might follow suit?

    not really because that requires effort to change existing bills. I could see it effect the other states where DFS isn’t yet legalized. you would think if you are lobbying for a bill you would be prepared for daily vs. seasonal but what do i know

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/bill-introduced-in-wa-state-518603

  • nymjjb

    nba=skill
    nhl=luck
    mlb=luck
    nfl=everybody’s good
    mma=gambling
    pga=anyone’s guess
    cbb=no idea

  • Troll4MVP

    • 30

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    • $1M Prize Winner

    • 2014 DraftKings FFWC Champion

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    Steve Conway is on the level with the bum-brained professor from Chris Prince’s ESPN piece.

    Anyhow, someone really needs to clearly explain it to them. As much as I admire Noah going there to attempt to do that, the skill-based nature wasn’t emphasized well enough.

    +1, that explanation was horrible.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 601

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    I would hope FanDuel & DraftKings could provide the FSTA some better talking points & data to show the skill element of DFS the next time DFS is discussed at these hearings.

  • depalma13

    The only luck in DFS is bad luck.

    The game is research and making the best possible decisions based on player cost and the information available to you.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @db730 said...

    I would hope FanDuel & DraftKings could provide the FSTA some better talking points & data to show the skill element of DFS the next time DFS is discussed at these hearings.

    Just hope they don’t get as disorganized as poker has. The nanny state has their powerful lobbyists and their Baptist/Evangelical/Concerned Stroller Mommy allies. Look at what happened to drinking at 18. At one point, the mantra was you can serve a war, you can be served in a bar. We’ll the concerned mommies and their lobbyists changed that in the 80s with MADD.

    I know the FSTA wants to disassociate themselves from poker and iGaming, but we all may need to be united against these crazy mofos on the other side. The nanny statists DO NOT see a difference between DFS and gambling.

  • Send9

    @nymjjb said...

    nba=skill
    nhl=luck
    mlb=luck
    nfl=everybody’s good
    mma=gambling
    pga=anyone’s guess
    cbb=no idea

    You have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • sethayates

    @PJGuin23 said...

    Just hope they don’t get as disorganized as poker has. The nanny state has their powerful lobbyists and their Baptist/Evangelical/Concerned Stroller Mommy allies. Look at what happened to drinking at 18. At one point, the mantra was you can serve a war, you can be served in a bar. We’ll the concerned mommies and their lobbyists changed that in the 80s with MADD.

    I know the FSTA wants to disassociate themselves from poker and iGaming, but we all may need to be united against these crazy mofos on the other side. The nanny statists DO NOT see a difference between DFS and gambling.

    I don’t see a big difference between DFS and gambling either. I would probably have the same odds laying $25 on Mini-baccarat as a h2h against Condia. The odds might even be better on mini-bacc.

    With that being said, DFS is a very “safe” form of online gambling. There are only a few chances to play per day. Even when your team sucks and you are on tilt there is nothing to enter until the next day.

  • easternmh

    • 2019 Blogger of the Month

    @sethayates said...

    I don’t see a big difference between DFS and gambling either. I would probably have the same odds laying $25 on Mini-baccarat as a h2h against Condia. The odds might even be better on mini-bacc.

    With that being said, DFS is a very “safe” form of online gambling. There are only a few chances to play per day. Even when your team sucks and you are on tilt there is nothing to enter until the next day.

    Uhh condia is one of us (a player) not the house. Condia is an extremely skilled player hence he wins ALOT

  • leafs93

    @easternmh said...

    Uhh condia is one of us (a player) not the house. Condia is an extremely skilled player hence he wins ALOT

    and there is absolutely no one telling you to take his games or you don’t get action, pretty simple to not play against well know players and have a 40/40 playing field

  • QQSTUKIE

    @db730 said...

    I would hope FanDuel & DraftKings could provide the FSTA some better talking points & data to show the skill element of DFS the next time DFS is discussed at these hearings.

    Dan, what should scare us the most is that the FSTA went to these hearings WITHOUT speaking to FanDuel & DraftKings first!

    What are these guys thinking, I have yet to watch the video however I can already guess how bad the DFS industry was represented. Is it time for a 100% daily fantasy lobbyist group?

  • whistexpert

    And the Condia example is why it is skill lmao.

    Either way… Sounds like things are going badly. Yikes

  • sethayates

    @easternmh said...

    Uhh condia is one of us (a player) not the house. Condia is an extremely skilled player hence he wins ALOT

    My point was that a new person could walk into DFS and pick up a game with much less than a 50% chance of winning. There are casino games that offer close to a 50% chance. I would be careful using the argument that an edge exists to justfy DFS as a game of skill.

    Personally, I wish we would just call DFS what it is. We are gambling. To me, there is no other way to look at it. This is 2015. If you include lottery, bingo, and casinos just about every state in America has some form of legalized gambling. Let’s just admit that what we all want is to gamble legally on the internet. The game of skill argument is akin to legalizing marijuana for medical reasons. It’s a dishonest argument using a loophole. Let’s sell DFS to America as what it really is. A fun way to gamble on sports that isn’t highly addictive.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @QQSTUKIE said...

    Dan, what should scare us the most is that the FSTA went to these hearings WITHOUT speaking to FanDuel & DraftKings first!

    What are these guys thinking, I have yet to watch the video however I can already guess how bad the DFS industry was represented. Is it time for a 100% daily fantasy lobbyist group?

    I agree. We need a PAC to represent our interests. There are so many that could potentially be against us including that turd Sheldon Adelson’s “Coalition” to Stop Internet Gambling which is well funded with expert lobbyists

    Good news is Comcast/NBC Sports owns part of Fanduel. The threats vs. Allies seem like any legal pitfalls could go either way. Too hard to judge at this point.

  • gibby84

    @sethayates said...

    My point was that a new person could walk into DFS and pick up a game with much less than a 50% chance of winning. There are casino games that offer close to a 50% chance. I would be careful using the argument that an edge exists to justfy DFS as a game of skill.

    Personally, I wish we would just call DFS what it is. We are gambling. To me, there is no other way to look at it. This is 2015. If you include lottery, bingo, and casinos just about every state in America has some form of legalized gambling. Let’s just admit that what we all want is to gamble legally on the internet. The game of skill argument is akin to legalizing marijuana for medical reasons. It’s a dishonest argument using a loophole. Let’s sell DFS to America as what it really is. A fun way to gamble on sports that isn’t highly addictive.

    That is an extremely poor analogy. Are there plenty of folks that use MMJ as a loophole to profit? Certainly. Are there also patients that benefit greatly from it? Of course. Unless you’re saying that people with cancer, AIDS, MS etc.. are also dishonest in their medicinal use. Nothing more dangerous that making lazy generalizations and not familiarizing yourself with the topic whilst drawing comparisons.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @gibby84 said...

    That is an extremely poor analogy. Are there plenty of folks that use MMJ as a loophole to profit? Certainly. Are there also patients that benefit greatly from it? Of course. Unless you’re saying that people with cancer, AIDS, MS etc.. are also dishonest in their medicinal use. Nothing more dangerous that making lazy generalizations and not familiarizing yourself with the topic whilst drawing comparisons.

    The reality is right now the US Constitution and the merits of Federalism and States Rights don’t mean shit right now due to Citizens United. It whoever has the will and the monies to outdo the other guy. Plain and simple.

    DFS makes sense to us. But not to a lot of Americans as shown in that WA State hearings. I would not want to know how it would go down in a more parochial State legislature like PA or one in the Midwest or South.

  • einars

    @sethayates said...

    My point was that a new person could walk into DFS and pick up a game with much less than a 50% chance of winning.

    which is exactly why its skill. a person who walked in to DFS that day would lose 90% of the time to someone like condia or CSU

  • sethayates

    @einars said...

    which is exactly why its skill. a person who walked in to DFS that day would lose 90% of the time to someone like condia or CSU

    Correct, the unskilled person is going to lose quite often. So maybe someone can explain to me how that would not be gambling. Everyone wants to focus on the skilled players and say this isn’t gambling because these people have skill. What about the losers? Are they not gambling?

  • gibby84

    @PJGuin23 said...

    The reality is right now the US Constitution and the merits of Federalism and States Rights don’t mean shit right now due to Citizens United. It whoever has the will and the monies to outdo the other guy. Plain and simple.

    DFS makes sense to us. But not to a lot of Americans as shown in that WA State hearings. I would not want to know how it would go down in a more parochial State legislature like PA or one in the Midwest or South.

    Not exactly sure why you quoted my post, unless it was to highlight the dangerous nature of generalizations and the confusion that muddles the issues as a result.

    In any case, I didn’t mean to derail the thread. Just wanted to mention that it was a poor analogy.

    There are specific medical conditions covered under MMJ (albeit with wide physician latitude in certain states). If DFS were considered a game of skill to those exceeding a certain win rate/profit threshold, while those not meeting said criteria were considered gambling as it relates to taxation purposes, then the comparison would be more apt. Of course this is not the case, nor the proposed WA legislation.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 601

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    Seth…bottom line is using that kind of language with lawmakers is going to make them VERY skeptical (even if most things in life could be considered a “gamble”). The game of skill angle IS important because that is what allows DFS to be legal under most state laws.

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