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  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

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    http://www.tvw.org/scripts/iframe_video.php?eventID=2015010201&start=3284&stop=3490

    Definitely worth watching. Doesn’t look too promising for DFS in Washington.

  • einars

    @sethayates said...

    Correct, the unskilled person is going to lose quite often. So maybe someone can explain to me how that would not be gambling. Everyone wants to focus on the skilled players and say this isn’t gambling because these people have skill. What about the losers? Are they not gambling?

    no they are playing a game of skill and losing because they have no skill. if I try to hit a cory kulber fastball i will wiff 100% of the time. why? because its a game of skill and i have none. if cory kluber says lets risk $1 each on whether you will hit my fastball is it no longer a game of skill? of course not, its still a game of skill and i still suck at it

  • Jeff7kv

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    @sethayates said...

    My point was that a new person could walk into DFS and pick up a game with much less than a 50% chance of winning. There are casino games that offer close to a 50% chance. I would be careful using the argument that an edge exists to justfy DFS as a game of skill.

    Personally, I wish we would just call DFS what it is. We are gambling. To me, there is no other way to look at it. This is 2015. If you include lottery, bingo, and casinos just about every state in America has some form of legalized gambling. Let’s just admit that what we all want is to gamble legally on the internet. The game of skill argument is akin to legalizing marijuana for medical reasons. It’s a dishonest argument using a loophole. Let’s sell DFS to America as what it really is. A fun way to gamble on sports that isn’t highly addictive.

    That’s exactly how I feel, Seth. I understand people want to protect those with a gambling addiction, but I for one know my limits. If I want to gamble with money, I should be allowed to do it, it’s my decision.

  • tprokopenko

    @sethayates said...

    My point was that a new person could walk into DFS and pick up a game with much less than a 50% chance of winning. There are casino games that offer close to a 50% chance. I would be careful using the argument that an edge exists to justfy DFS as a game of skill.

    Personally, I wish we would just call DFS what it is. We are gambling. To me, there is no other way to look at it. This is 2015. If you include lottery, bingo, and casinos just about every state in America has some form of legalized gambling. Let’s just admit that what we all want is to gamble legally on the internet. The game of skill argument is akin to legalizing marijuana for medical reasons. It’s a dishonest argument using a loophole. Let’s sell DFS to America as what it really is. A fun way to gamble on sports that isn’t highly addictive.

    Exactly. DFS is gambling, plain and simple. I’m not sure why calling it ‘gambling’ is so taboo, but I guess a lot of people believe that this could cause it to be banned. It is legalized gambling (in most places), and there is absolutely no problem with this.

    It’s basically like a lottery, but with athletes instead of numbers. Granted, there is an element of skill involved compared to picking random numbers, but anyone could win on any day, and DFS should be looked at more as a form of entertainment.

  • Jeff7kv

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    @tprokopenko said...

    Exactly. DFS is gambling, plain and simple. I’m not sure why calling it ‘gambling’ is so taboo, but I guess a lot of people believe that this could cause it to be banned. It is legalized gambling (in most places), and there is absolutely no problem with this.

    It’s basically like a lottery, but with athletes instead of numbers. Granted, there is an element of skill involved compared to picking random numbers, but anyone could win on any day, and DFS should be looked at more as a form of entertainment.

    I tried in the past to argue it’s not gambling and fair enough, i’ll concede it’s a form of gambling. I’m placing wagers in the hope for financial gains.
    But there is definite skill involved that makes the decision to compare it to casinos a bad one. We all control our fate through our roster decisions, it’s proven that there are people who can make a living off of DFS because they are good at it. Outside of Texas hold em, there is no game in the casino you can win consistently because it’s luck-based. You are hoping the house edge doesn’t get you. (If you’re counting cards in blackjack, I suppose that’s an exception). It doesn’t matter how well I make my decisions, I know if I play long enough, I will lose. DFS isn’t that way, there is no house to overcome. You can skill your way through it.

  • sethayates

    @db730 said...

    Seth…bottom line is using that kind of language with lawmakers is going to make them VERY skeptical (even if most things in life could be considered a “gamble”). The game of skill angle IS important because that is what allows DFS to be legal under most state laws.

    I would disagree that being a game of skill is the reason Fantasy Sports received an exemption in the UIGEA. The UIGEA also exempted Tribal Casinos and Horse racing. Does that mean they suddenly operate games of skill?

    The fact is that DFS did not exist when the UIGEA was written. The Fantasy Sports exemption was meant for Season long leagues not Daily. It just happened to work out that DFS fits into the exemption carved out. Instead of arguing DFS isn’t a gambling we should be arguing that DFS is a legitimate industry. Taxes are being paid, and many jobs have been created by both the sites and those providing picks and services. Congress didn’t have a problem with exempting Fantasy Sports because the NFL was backing that exemption. As long as we get the sports leagues to back DFS I don’t think there are major issues keeping DFS legal even though it is a form of internet gambling.

  • elbirdos

    @Jeff7kv said...

    I tried in the past to argue it’s not gambling and fair enough, i’ll concede it’s a form of gambling. I’m placing wagers in the hope for financial gains.
    But there is definite skill involved that makes the decision to compare it to casinos a bad one. We all control our fate through our roster decisions, it’s proven that there are people who can make a living off of DFS because they are good at it. Outside of Texas hold em, there is no game in the casino you can win consistently because it’s luck-based. You are hoping the house edge doesn’t get you. (If you’re counting cards in blackjack, I suppose that’s an exception). It doesn’t matter how well I make my decisions, I know if I play long enough, I will lose. DFS isn’t that way, there is no house to overcome. You can skill your way through it.

    The house takes 10% off the top. IMO that means you still have to beat the house and the other players.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @sethayates said...

    I would disagree that being a game of skill is the reason Fantasy Sports received an exemption in the UIGEA. The UIGEA also exempted Tribal Casinos and Horse racing. Does that mean they suddenly operate games of skill?

    The fact is that DFS did not exist when the UIGEA was written. The Fantasy Sports exemption was meant for Season long leagues not Daily. It just happened to work out that DFS fits into the exemption carved out. Instead of arguing DFS isn’t a gambling we should be arguing that DFS is a legitimate industry. Taxes are being paid, and many jobs have been created by both the sites and those providing picks and services. Congress didn’t have a problem with exempting Fantasy Sports because the NFL was backing that exemption. As long as we get the sports leagues to back DFS I don’t think there are major issues keeping DFS legal even though it is a form of internet gambling.

    The question remains. Will DFS be challenged at the Federal or another State’s level? There’s always some conservative trying to woo their Church going base or some nanny state type woman on the left trying to woo stroller mom’s by preaching the evils of DFS. I made an example of how MADD got their way in the 1980s with their draconian 21 minimum drinking age no other Western civilized nation has. We as Americans like the police state. We like the Nanny State. We like the Security State and we don’t question it. That’s our problem. People who oppose it are afraid of sounding insensitive, callous, or unpatriotic.

  • rookie319s

    http://www.atlredline.com/republicans-renew-effort-to-outlaw-internet-poker-1684456385

  • Jeff7kv

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    @elbirdos said...

    The house takes 10% off the top. IMO that means you still have to beat the house and the other players.

    But you CAN.

    I cant beat roulette
    I cant beat video poker
    I cant beat slots

    I can beat DFS opponents and overcome the 10% you speak of. That’s the difference. I can make educated decisions that puts the edge in my favor over the longhaul, we all can.

  • Jeff7kv

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    @PJGuin23 said...

    The question remains. Will DFS be challenged at the Federal or another State’s level? There’s always some conservative trying to woo their Church going base or some nanny state type woman on the left trying to woo stroller mom’s by preaching the evils of DFS. I made an example of how MADD got their way in the 1980s with their draconian 21 minimum drinking age no other Western civilized nation has. We as Americans like the police state. We like the Nanny State. We like the Security State and we don’t question it. That’s our problem. People who oppose it are afraid of sounding insensitive, callous, or unpatriotic.

    Yea I kinda cringe myself because of sounding ‘unAmerican’ in this sensitive era we’re living in.

  • WhyNotEh

    @sethayates said...

    Correct, the unskilled person is going to lose quite often. So maybe someone can explain to me how that would not be gambling. Everyone wants to focus on the skilled players and say this isn’t gambling because these people have skill. What about the losers? Are they not gambling?

    I always tell myself to ignore the countless posts in various threads about DFS and whether or not it is gambling etc. However, this thread has so many responses from individuals on BOTH sides of the argument that have me extremely tilted, so I can’t help myself. Do people not understand that both things can be true? DFS is clearly gambling in the literal sense of the word: we are all wagering money on a less than certain outcome . But Seth, honestly…..do you not understand that there are no equivalents to Condia/McJester/CSU in the world of mini-roulette?!?!? To compare DFS and a casino game with NO skill involved is completely ridiculous and a lazy analogy. DFS is a game that has elements of both luck AND skill, which is completely different from lotteries/pit games. I think the reason why so many people are hesitant to call DFS “gambling” is because most people lump all games with luck/chance involved together. Even though luck plays a part in the outcome of DFS entries, it is still primarily a game of skill. These same things can never be said in regards to scratch tickets, roulette, etc.

  • sethayates

    @WhyNotEh said...

    I always tell myself to ignore the countless posts in various threads about DFS and whether or not it is gambling etc. However, this thread has so many responses from individuals on BOTH sides of the argument that have me extremely tilted, so I can’t help myself. Do people not understand that both things can be true? DFS is clearly gambling in the literal sense of the word: we are all wagering money on a less than certain outcome . But Seth, honestly…..do you not understand that there are no equivalents to Condia/McJester/CSU in the world of mini-roulette?!?!? To compare DFS and a casino game with NO skill involved is completely ridiculous and a lazy analogy. DFS is a game that has elements of both luck AND skill, which is completely different from lotteries/pit games. I think the reason why so many people are hesitant to call DFS “gambling” is because most people lump all games with luck/chance involved together. Even though luck plays a part in the outcome of DFS entries, it is still primarily a game of skill. These same things can never be said in regards to scratch tickets, roulette, etc.

    I actually agree with you. Something can be both a game of skill and gambling. I used this analogy before. If I play you in chess h2h for $1000 that is both a skill game and gambling.

  • elbirdos

    @Jeff7kv said...

    But you CAN.

    I cant beat roulette
    I cant beat video poker
    I cant beat slots

    I can beat DFS opponents and overcome the 10% you speak of. That’s the difference. I can make educated decisions that puts the edge in my favor over the longhaul, we all can.

    I didn’t say you couldn’t overcome the house…. just pointing out the house takes some of your profits. You said there is NO house, which is an absolutely false statement.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    @sethayates said...

    I would disagree that being a game of skill is the reason Fantasy Sports received an exemption in the UIGEA. The UIGEA also exempted Tribal Casinos and Horse racing. Does that mean they suddenly operate games of skill?

    The fact is that DFS did not exist when the UIGEA was written. The Fantasy Sports exemption was meant for Season long leagues not Daily. It just happened to work out that DFS fits into the exemption carved out. Instead of arguing DFS isn’t a gambling we should be arguing that DFS is a legitimate industry. Taxes are being paid, and many jobs have been created by both the sites and those providing picks and services. Congress didn’t have a problem with exempting Fantasy Sports because the NFL was backing that exemption. As long as we get the sports leagues to back DFS I don’t think there are major issues keeping DFS legal even though it is a form of internet gambling.

    I never for a second said that game of skill is the reason Fantasy Sports received an exemption from the US govt…..I said that to for the game to be legal under most states laws THAT is what needs to be satisfied. Here is a link to what I’m talking about for the State of Kansas.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/kansas-lawmaker-fantasy-sports-leagues-legal-29004375

    I think “WhyNotEh” hit it on the head in his explanation about negative connotations by the public with things categorized as gambling.

  • whits23

    2010 FFFC Finalist, 2010 DFBC Finalist, 2011 FFFC Finalist, 2014 DSBC Finalist

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    FSTA the same group who let season long events under their umbrella to award a 2 guy’s from an illegal states to win their big season long contest…i think gambling takes more skill than fantasy if that were ever up for debate

  • whits23

    2010 FFFC Finalist, 2010 DFBC Finalist, 2011 FFFC Finalist, 2014 DSBC Finalist

    • x2

      2010 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2011 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    i think people confuse willing a lot of games with winning a lot of money when they never see the persons 1099 do they really know?

  • Jeff7kv

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    @whits23 said...

    i think people confuse willing a lot of games with winning a lot of money when they never see the persons 1099 do they really know?

    Yea no kidding, big letdown

  • Cityworkout

    Is it a skill game if only a small percentage can win long term? If the environment continues to get tougher that means skill becomes less and less of a factor.

  • Troll4MVP

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    @LanceS said...

    Is it a skill game if only a small percentage can win long term? If the environment continues to get tougher that means skill becomes less and less of a factor.

    I disagree. If the games get tougher, skilled players will have lower ROI’s in absolute terms, but they will still be relatively higher than that of an unskilled player who jumps in for the first time.

  • Cityworkout

    @Troll4MVP said...

    I disagree. If the games get tougher, skilled players will have lower ROI’s in absolute terms, but they will still be relatively higher than that of an unskilled player who jumps in for the first time.

    I agree with you in the relative ROI but I think the game will be unprofitable for more people percentage wise. Not sure if that is going to be an issue.

  • Jeff7kv

    .

    @LanceS said...

    Is it a skill game if only a small percentage can win long term? If the environment continues to get tougher that means skill becomes less and less of a factor.

    The reason why a very few percent win consistently is because the majority of people don’t have the time and or don’t want to do the time required to be good

  • fball94132

    Few people argue that the stock market is gambling and the government definitely does not. What is the difference between the stock exchange and dfs?
    In my mind… nothing.

    We have no control over the productivity of our “Stocks”
    In DFS this would refer to our players. We can not control how they do every night.
    In the stock market, if I buy shares of apple, I have no direct control over whether they are profitable or not. Obviously the exception would be if I could buy enough shares to influence the company. But most of us are not that rich.
    In both instances, we have no control over the success of the business or player.
    Does it stop people from investing in stocks? No
    Is it seen as gambling? No

    Why is this?
    Can you see the stock exchange as a game of skill? Of course.
    There are successfull investors like Warren Buffet to name one. People get rich by investing in the stock market. Does it happen to everyone? Of course not. The thing that makes investors successful are direct analysis of financial statements, historical analysis of the success of the company, and understanding the upside that the company can provide.
    This separates successful investors from those that merely throw their money in the stock market. Are these people gambling? Yes. The ones that study and analyze; can they be considered gamblers? no. Because they did their due dilligence.

    If 20 percent of the people who invest in the stock exchange profit; does this mean its a game of luck, or gambling? It definitely looks like a game of skill based on the analysis because Warren Buffet and other successful investors can get it right 8/10 and if you do this enough; it is profitable.

    Now in DFS terms; if we do our due dilligence; even though we can not control the success of the players in any given night; how can this be seen as gambling? Are we not merely investing in players just as investors are investing in the stock market? With due dilligence and research; we take chance out of it. We can win 8/10 of the time and possibly even more if we get better.
    Those that do not study and just throw money in, they can be seen as gamblers. Those that do their due dilligence can not be seen as gamblers because they eliminated the liklihood of loss and changed it into a game of skill.

    If the stock market = DFS, and based on my analysis it seems very comparable; then dfs should not be seen as gambling just as the stock market is not seen as gambling by the united states.

    Now for those who talk about the house taking 10 percent; when people invest in the stock market; the sites they use to invest (i.e etrade) it takes a commission as well. This is equal to fan duel or draft kings charging a rake. They have to use the rake to stay afloat. Etrade and other sites that offer stock exchange services charge a commission as well. This means the investors have to beat the house as well but it is merely a means of doing business.

    If apple does well in one year and microsoft flopped; I could have discovered the possibility of that happening if i studied the financial statements enough.
    If Harden did better than durant, I should be able to figure the possibility of that happening as well based on dvp, pace, and other analytical tools that can be offered.
    To sum it up, are there gamblers that play dfs? Yes. But there are also gamblers in the stock market who have no idea what they are doing and just hope they can win to get some easy cash. However, the skill is present in both dfs and the stock market. This effectively takes the gambling out of the game. The stock market is not seen as a gambling game even though gamblers can play. skill creates success. DFS is the exact same. Gamblers can play but skill can be used to profit; effectively taking the gambling aspect out of the game.

    Sorry for the long post. Hopefully you guys made it to the end :)

  • QQSTUKIE

    @whits23 said...

    FSTA the same group who let season long events under their umbrella to award a 2 guy’s from an illegal states to win their big season long contest…i think gambling takes more skill than fantasy if that were ever up for debate

    Please explain more, what did the FSTA do?

  • CrazyGabey

    Throw me in the courtroom and I’ll have them all on our side by sundown.

  • TheJBaum

    I am currently making a DFS documentary and would love to help secure this point of skill vs gambling within the film. Any ideas on resources to use, statistics available, or people to speak to in regards of showing the argument for the skills aspect of the game?

    Film is the most influential medium of our time. I hope with “Perfect Lineup” it will help solidify this argument for all of DFS and it’s future.

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