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  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

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    http://www.tvw.org/scripts/iframe_video.php?eventID=2015010201&start=3284&stop=3490

    Definitely worth watching. Doesn’t look too promising for DFS in Washington.

  • adamo112

    I grew up in WA and people are not understanding the unique confluence of factors that exists there:

    1. There are a lot of casinos that produce economic effects and are backed by powerful lobbies.
    2. There is no state income tax.

    It’s these two factors taken together that make things so difficult and why WA should be seen as a unique battleground for this issue. Until lawmakers in WA see that they are losing economic opportunities, they are going to continue to protect the $. And they don’t see lost economic opportunities within DFS because the state doesn’t have an income tax, so they don’t benefit from individual players having to pay tax on winnings. Someone needs to show these guys the growth of DFS – not just in terms of individual players, but companies that are emerging (sites, content, affiliates) – and the way WA will completely miss out any impending boom. THEN, you will see legislators actually care to find out the real story, argue its merits, etc. But for now, literally the only argument is “citizens of your state want to play daily fantasy sports.” How is that going to move a state rep or senator to passionate action? You have to give a crusader a cause, after all.

  • Joe1Coal

    @db730 said...

    Seth…bottom line is using that kind of language with lawmakers is going to make them VERY skeptical (even if most things in life could be considered a “gamble”). The game of skill angle IS important because that is what allows DFS to be legal under most state laws.

    Using ‘this kind of language?’ That is the problem with the thinking. Either all gambling is OK or it is not. DFS has somehow carved itself out of gambling, which I am fine with. However, anyone suggesting it is not gambling has clearly been jaded by all the money they are making. Yes, you can make yourself very good by doing research, looking at patterns, stats, dvP, everything. I am all for saying skill makes you better, just like poker, just like craps, just like blackjack. There is a rhyme to every gambling game. That does not make it any less gambling. I think selling it as a game of skill will only raise eyebrows more.

    One thing that is positive is that Adam Silver is selling gambling to the rest of the world and it appears that people are starting to buy in. Eventually, you will be able to place bets from your phone in every state and I think it happens before there is a real concerted effort to attack DFS. Just my opinion.

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    Hypothetically speaking:

    I’m the best Euchre player. I win 72% of the time against random opponents. I win 58% of the time in professional tournaments.

    Everything can be quantified. The question is always how.

    Based on luck, I should win 50% of the time vs random opponents.
    Based on skill, I should win 100% of the time against random opponents.
    If it is a game of equal luck and equal skill, I should win 75% of the time.
    My 72% proves that luck is a larger factor than skill in euchre.

    Now, is there a DFS player who would win 75% or more of his games against random opponents? If not, then luck is a larger factor. Luck is becoming a larger factor in DFS as competition improves, but if Troll4MVP played the #1, #1001, #2001, etc…all the way through a field of 50,000 random names picked out of a hat, I think he would win more than 75% of the time. That still makes the skill factor larger than luck.

    Almost every game has a skill element and a luck element involved. Chess I would consider all skill. Candy Land, roulette, lottery, these are games of pure chance. Monopoly, Backgammon, Spades, Euchre, DFS all have a mix. Those mixes can be quantified, but again, the question is how.

  • Jeff7kv

    .

    @Yukerboy said...

    Hypothetically speaking:

    I’m the best Euchre player. I win 72% of the time against random opponents. I win 58% of the time in professional tournaments.

    Everything can be quantified. The question is always how.

    Based on luck, I should win 50% of the time vs random opponents.
    Based on skill, I should win 100% of the time against random opponents.
    If it is a game of equal luck and equal skill, I should win 75% of the time.
    My 72% proves that luck is a larger factor than skill in euchre.

    Now, is there a DFS player who would win 75% or more of his games against random opponents? If not, then luck is a larger factor. Luck is becoming a larger factor in DFS as competition improves, but if Troll4MVP played the #1, #1001, #2001, etc…all the way through a field of 50,000 random names picked out of a hat, I think he would win more than 75% of the time. That still makes the skill factor larger than luck.

    Almost every game has a skill element and a luck element involved. Chess I would consider all skill. Candy Land, roulette, lottery, these are games of pure chance. Monopoly, Backgammon, Spades, Euchre, DFS all have a mix. Those mixes can be quantified, but again, the question is how.

    Maybe I’m too dumb to come up with a better argument, but I feel it’s all about the fact you control your fate. I understand you can’t always know how an individual player will fare (injuries, foul trouble, coaches decision). But if you are good at DFS, you will build an 8 or 9 man roster that contains lots of good plays, good plays that can balance the good with the bad and net you the win. That’s skill. The guy who freaks out over one player on his cash lineup not playing well….that’s a guy who doesn’t know what he’s doing yet. That guy needs a lot more luck than a Smizz or Gabey.

  • TreyMonkey2

    exactly

  • TwoGun

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    Very depressing video. Had to stop watching. That silly woman saying DFS is chance and season long is skill needed to be put in her place. Any person has a chance of winning their season long league with a Yahoo auto-draft if their guys stay healthy and their opponents are injured, but someone like her would get squished if she attempted to try to win at DFS.

    Oh and by the way, why is it never mentioned that the way season long works, the majority of prizes are the result of matchups in one or two weeks in the fantasy league’s “playoffs?” It’s DFS without the skill of choosing your roster.

  • whits23

    2010 FFFC Finalist, 2010 DFBC Finalist, 2011 FFFC Finalist, 2014 DSBC Finalist

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    @QQSTUKIE said...

    Please explain more, what did the FSTA do?

    FFPC’s $300,000 winner is from Iowa.

    NFFC Classic’s $100,000 winner is from Louisiana.

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    @TwoGun said...

    Very depressing video. Had to stop watching. That silly woman saying DFS is chance and season long is skill needed to be put in her place. Any person has a chance of winning their season long league with a Yahoo auto-draft if their guys stay healthy and their opponents are injured, but someone like her would get squished if she attempted to try to win at DFS.

    Oh and by the way, why is it never mentioned that the way season long works, the majority of prizes are the result of matchups in one or two weeks in the fantasy league’s “playoffs?” It’s DFS without the skill of choosing your roster.

    There’s the solution. Challenge them to a game.

    You think it’s luck? Cool. We’ll play 10 times. I beat you 8 out of 10, you back DFS.

    And, Jeff, I think we say the same thing, just different words. The skill factor is where you control your fate. If it’s 40% skill and 60% luck, top players will win 70% of the time. 30%, they will lose due to luck, 30% they will win due to luck, 40% they win because of skill.

  • TreyMonkey2

    Well I guess I will just head on over to the local VFD (Volunteer Fire Department) or American Legion and play me some Bingo…

  • AndThisGuyPeedOnIt

    This has nothing to do with gambling, game of skill, or anything like that. Like anything else in government, it has to do with money. Casino owners donate to Republicans who then do their bidding, and their bidding is to shut down anything related to internet gambling because they think that will somehow increase their own profits. Did all of the “poker is skill” arguments make any difference? Are they making any difference now that Sheldon Adelson wants internet poker deader than it already is?

    The DFS sites need someone lobbying on their behalf, and by lobbying I mean campaign donations.

  • clarnzz

    @Yukerboy said...

    There’s the solution. Challenge them to a game.

    You think it’s luck? Cool. We’ll play 10 times. I beat you 8 out of 10, you back DFS.

    I’ll take the old chick to beat you more than 2 out of 10 times with incentives and a SXM subscription. :)

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    @AndThisGuyPeedOnIt said...

    This has nothing to do with gambling, game of skill, or anything like that. Like anything else in government, it has to do with money. Casino owners donate to Republicans who then do their bidding, and their bidding is to shut down anything related to internet gambling because they think that will somehow increase their own profits. Did all of the “poker is skill” arguments make any difference? Are they making any difference now that Sheldon Adelson wants internet poker deader than it already is?

    The DFS sites need someone lobbying on their behalf, and by lobbying I mean campaign donations.

    A lot of casino owners and Republicans are pushing for Internet gambling though.

  • Yukerboy

    • Blogger of the Month

    @clarnzz said...

    I’ll take the old chick to beat you more than 2 out of 10 times with incentives and a SXM subscription. :)

    I wouldn’t have me represent. Agree wholeheartedly.

  • jimmyrad

    @AndThisGuyPeedOnIt said...

    Casino owners donate to Republicans who then do their bidding,

    As if both sides aren’t the same when it comes to this kind of thing. And let’s not pretend that Democrats don’t run Wash state, or that they helped/are helping at all with o-l poker. This isn’t a defense of the GOP, I just think it’s hypocritical to act like the Dems are somehow on our side, and it’s beyond silly to suggest that voting for or donating to them in a vacuum helps in any way. The monied interests behind DFS are our sole ally.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    @TheJBaum said...

    I am currently making a DFS documentary and would love to help secure this point of skill vs gambling within the film. Any ideas on resources to use, statistics available, or people to speak to in regards of showing the argument for the skills aspect of the game?

    Film is the most influential medium of our time. I hope with “Perfect Lineup” it will help solidify this argument for all of DFS and it’s future.

    I’ll get in on the discussion and offer any help I can provide. I’m a sport management professor who has been officially studying DFS since July 2014. I’m currently conducting what’s called a participant inquiry, meaning I fully immerse myself in the experience and take field notes daily. The intent was/is to learn more about the culture, strategy, etc. Since participant inquiry is inductive by nature, I am not trying to find support for a theory, but rather, developing my own as I go along. At some point, I’ll begin interviewing others regarding questions that I’ve developed along the way. I believe I have enough strong evidence to date to clearly articulate an argument of skill over luck in regards to DFS.

  • acesedy

    @yoteach said...

    I’ll get in on the discussion and offer any help I can provide. I’m a sport management professor who has been officially studying DFS since July 2014. I’m currently conducting what’s called a participant inquiry, meaning I fully immerse myself in the experience and take field notes daily. The intent was/is to learn more about the culture, strategy, etc. Since participant inquiry is inductive by nature, I am not trying to find support for a theory, but rather, developing my own as I go along. At some point, I’ll begin interviewing others regarding questions that I’ve developed along the way. I believe I have enough strong evidence to date to clearly articulate an argument of skill over luck in regards to DFS.

    That sounds absolutely fascinating. If you want to talk to an NHL DFS player for any data or information I would be happy to talk to you.

  • invictuz

    This is a quote from the RAWA article linked in this thread earlier:

    “The three primary elements of gambling are prize, consideration, and chance. In America, if skill predominates chance, then it is not gambling, and thus not subject to anti-gambling laws.

    The UIGEA specifically states a game is legal if it “has an outcome that reflects the relative knowledge of the participants, or their skill at physical reaction or physical manipulation (but not chance), and, in the case of a fantasy or simulation sports game, has an outcome that is determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of sporting events.” “

    As UIGEA is the law that defines what is and is not gambling (until RAWA gets updated and pushed out) it seems a great place to start when arguing one way or the other: Gambling or Skill

    http://www.atlredline.com/republicans-renew-effort-to-outlaw-internet-poker-1684456385

  • CeeGee

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    Sen. Pam Roach…

    How can Season long be a game of skill, and Daily Fantasy be a game of Chance?????????

  • CeeGee

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    @stlcardinals84 said...

    Steve Conway is on the level with the bum-brained professor from Chris Prince’s ESPN piece.

    Anyhow, someone really needs to clearly explain it to them. As much as I admire Noah going there to attempt to do that, the skill-based nature wasn’t emphasized well enough.

    I also agree, respectfully, Noah didn’t do a great job explaining the “skill” involved

    We need to send some of the Best DFS Players to do this.

  • depalma13

    @fball94132 said...

    Few people argue that the stock market is gambling and the government definitely does not. What is the difference between the stock exchange and dfs?
    In my mind… nothing.

    We have no control over the productivity of our “Stocks”
    In DFS this would refer to our players. We can not control how they do every night.
    In the stock market, if I buy shares of apple, I have no direct control over whether they are profitable or not. Obviously the exception would be if I could buy enough shares to influence the company. But most of us are not that rich.
    In both instances, we have no control over the success of the business or player.
    Does it stop people from investing in stocks? No
    Is it seen as gambling? No

    Why is this?
    Can you see the stock exchange as a game of skill? Of course.
    There are successfull investors like Warren Buffet to name one. People get rich by investing in the stock market. Does it happen to everyone? Of course not. The thing that makes investors successful are direct analysis of financial statements, historical analysis of the success of the company, and understanding the upside that the company can provide.
    This separates successful investors from those that merely throw their money in the stock market. Are these people gambling? Yes. The ones that study and analyze; can they be considered gamblers? no. Because they did their due dilligence.

    If 20 percent of the people who invest in the stock exchange profit; does this mean its a game of luck, or gambling? It definitely looks like a game of skill based on the analysis because Warren Buffet and other successful investors can get it right 8/10 and if you do this enough; it is profitable.

    Now in DFS terms; if we do our due dilligence; even though we can not control the success of the players in any given night; how can this be seen as gambling? Are we not merely investing in players just as investors are investing in the stock market? With due dilligence and research; we take chance out of it. We can win 8/10 of the time and possibly even more if we get better.
    Those that do not study and just throw money in, they can be seen as gamblers. Those that do their due dilligence can not be seen as gamblers because they eliminated the liklihood of loss and changed it into a game of skill.

    If the stock market = DFS, and based on my analysis it seems very comparable; then dfs should not be seen as gambling just as the stock market is not seen as gambling by the united states.

    Now for those who talk about the house taking 10 percent; when people invest in the stock market; the sites they use to invest (i.e etrade) it takes a commission as well. This is equal to fan duel or draft kings charging a rake. They have to use the rake to stay afloat. Etrade and other sites that offer stock exchange services charge a commission as well. This means the investors have to beat the house as well but it is merely a means of doing business.

    If apple does well in one year and microsoft flopped; I could have discovered the possibility of that happening if i studied the financial statements enough.
    If Harden did better than durant, I should be able to figure the possibility of that happening as well based on dvp, pace, and other analytical tools that can be offered.
    To sum it up, are there gamblers that play dfs? Yes. But there are also gamblers in the stock market who have no idea what they are doing and just hope they can win to get some easy cash. However, the skill is present in both dfs and the stock market. This effectively takes the gambling out of the game. The stock market is not seen as a gambling game even though gamblers can play. skill creates success. DFS is the exact same. Gamblers can play but skill can be used to profit; effectively taking the gambling aspect out of the game.

    Sorry for the long post. Hopefully you guys made it to the end :)

    There is a huge difference between the stock market and DFS. Unless you are the absolutely unluckiest person in the world, there is no way you are going to lose all of your money the same day you buy a stock.

    If you take $25 and play a H2H DFS game, there are only two outcomes by the end of the night. You either double your money (less the rake) or you have no money left. That is gambling, plain and simple.

    If you take $25 and buy a share of XYZ, you have no idea what the value of that $25 will be at the end of the night, but it won’t be $0 (unless you are the unluckiest person in the world). There will always be a chance for you to sell before it reaches $0. Yes it will be a loss, but you will still have something.

    Now if there was an option in DFS where you could sell your team during the game (day), whether you are winning or losing, than a stock market analogy would be correct.

  • Putz

    @depalma13 said...

    There is a huge difference between the stock market and DFS. Unless you are the absolutely unluckiest person in the world, there is no way you are going to lose all of your money the same day you buy a stock.

    If you take $25 and play a H2H DFS game, there are only two outcomes by the end of the night. You either double your money (less the rake) or you have no money left. That is gambling, plain and simple.

    If you take $25 and buy a share of XYZ, you have no idea what the value of that $25 will be at the end of the night, but it won’t be $0 (unless you are the unluckiest person in the world). There will always be a chance for you to sell before it reaches $0. Yes it will be a loss, but you will still have something.

    Now if there was an option in DFS where you could sell your team during the game (day), whether you are winning or losing, than a stock market analogy would be correct.

    You are only looking at one aspect of stocks, with an absolute example. Fail.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

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    Don’t tell Miss. Bliss you can’t lose your ass on the stock market. Damned Potato market cost her a brand new sports car.

  • depalma13

    @Putz said...

    You are only looking at one aspect of stocks, with an absolute example. Fail.

    Hardly a fail at all.

    You cannot get out of a DFS game once it starts. There are only two outcomes and one of those outcomes is $0.

    You can get out of any stock you purchase.

    If you can show me a way how I can get out of DFS game when I am down and will lose so I can stave off some losses, I’m all ears.

  • jrb13850

    @easternmh said...

    Uhh condia is one of us (a player) not the house. Condia is an extremely skilled player hence he wins ALOT

    Poker is a game of skill too. But it does involve chance. To suggest that there is no element of chance in DFS is plain silly,

  • einars

    @jrb13850 said...

    Poker is a game of skill too. But it does involve chance. To suggest that there is no element of chance in DFS is plain silly,

    the involvement of chance does not make it gambling. otherwise i am gambling every time i eat a chip that i dont choke and die

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