• db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    Definitely worth watching. Doesn’t look too promising for DFS in Washington.

  • jrb13850

    @Putz said...

    You are only looking at one aspect of stocks, with an absolute example. Fail.

    The stock market is very highly regulated, so maybe that is where DFS ends up, with massive regulation.

    But the reality is that there is no analogy to the stock market. When you buy stock, you acquire an ownership interest. Ie you acquire property. You don’t own anything when you “invest” in your team. I think DFS should be legal. But making specious arguments does not help the cause.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    @einars said...

    the involvement of chance does not make it gambling. otherwise i am gambling every time i eat a chip that i dont choke and die

    Thanks for the laugh this AM. I got a nice visualization of a guy nibbling on his Poker chips while contemplating whether to fold or call.

  • AndThisGuyPeedOnIt

    @jimmyrad said...

    As if both sides aren’t the same when it comes to this kind of thing. And let’s not pretend that Democrats don’t run Wash state, or that they helped/are helping at all with o-l poker. This isn’t a defense of the GOP, I just think it’s hypocritical to act like the Dems are somehow on our side, and it’s beyond silly to suggest that voting for or donating to them in a vacuum helps in any way. The monied interests behind DFS are our sole ally.

    I never said the Democrats were helping. I never said they were “on our side.” All I said was the casino owners donate to the Republicans who then do their bidding. That is verifiable fact. The bulk of the money is going against online gaming, mostly from Adelson, but some other casinos and horse tracks are donating for the opposite direction. None of them, however, are donating in favor of DFS because they have no interest in it.

    Frankly, it doesn’t matter which side of the aisle the DFS industry donates to, so long as they start collecting some of these people in their pocket. That might be cynical, but that’s the truth of the matter. Senator [Insert Name] doesn’t give a shit if DFS is a game of skill or not—he gives a shit that donations are going to him and not his opponent, and the way to do that is to support a cause. They care about bringing in campaign donations and showing they are bringing money back home to their state. The tax angle / advertising money is the best argument that can be made to politicians about DFS. Job creation is minimal.

  • Putz

    @depalma13 said...

    Hardly a fail at all.

    You cannot get out of a DFS game once it starts. There are only two outcomes and one of those outcomes is $0.

    You can get out of any stock you purchase.

    If you can show me a way how I can get out of DFS game when I am down and will lose so I can stave off some losses, I’m all ears.

    No one is arguing that aspect, and it is unrelated, obviously. Playing the market places a financial risk on the investor, or buyer, of such stocks, similar to entering a DFS contest, since there are no “guaranteed“outcomes. At the end of the day, when you sell, there are THREE outcomes: you are either profitable, breaking even, or taking a loss, same as when entering DFS contests. Your example assumes an all or nothing investment in DFS. I have never seen someone who is serious about DFS, take a complete loss, all or nothing, in all of their contests (similarly, I’ll use your words: “unless they are the unluckiest person in the world”). If they did they are not taking it seriously or paying much attention. Big fail with your cherry-picking example of the transactional aspect of buying/selling and entering contests and ending contests mid-contest.

    To summarize for the less well read, DFS has the following, non-exhaustive, similarities with day trading: financial risk for the participants, non-guaranteed outcomes, profitable participants are most likely skilled in the domains they are participating in (or hired someone skilled to provide them advice), and luck plays a factor with profitability and losses.

    But please, jump on those obvious non-similar aspects that no one is debating.

  • ChrisGimino

    • 2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Is the stock market a contest vs. a defined field of entrants, with specifc rules, and a flat entry fee?

    DFS games , while they rely on events that occur outside the players control—- are played vs. the other competitors in the game. They are not a competition against the house or on the individual performances of players. You play to ourscore other players.

    The key determining factor is your relative ability to forecast outcomes vs. the field of other entries within the constraints of the contest . Doing so in the short run could be luck. Doing so over the long run should statistically demonstrate who has superior ability to defeat the field.

    If you have data that demonstrates ability to defeat the field long term—- and at a rate that exceeds a reasonable probability of doing so by chance—- then I see a distinct difference vs. games of chance that are not played vs. other players.

    Zooming out to the long run presents a better case for skill than focusing on the results of any individual contest.

  • invictuz

    I started watching the video…but had to stop 30 seconds in.
    while DFS is new to me…I thought fantasy sports in general got its start with some number-crunching Harvard professor and it was baseball.

    The woman starts off “it is a marketing tool created for football” “it started as an online game for your buddies”

  • HungryHungryHip

    Watching the senators, etc in the video speak about fantasy sports is the equivalent to watching the head of the science committee(someone who has no experience in the field and believes climate change is a hoax) speak about science.

    I hate everything

  • Jeff7kv


    @HungryHungryHip said...

    Watching the senators, etc in the video speak about fantasy sports is the equivalent to watching the head of the science committee(someone who has no experience in the field and believes climate change is a hoax) speak about science.

    I hate everything

    That’s exactly the problem, there are people in control of the situation that are completely uneducated on the matter.

    American Politics 101

  • adamo112

    You guys are still missing the larger point. The “luck vs. skill” and “is it gambling” debates are just what people are talking about. The real driver – the underlying driver – required for people to take action is money. WA has no state income tax. Where is the state going to get money from this? Unless they feel their constituents will vote them out of office or move to another state, what monetary value does “I want to be able to play this game” have? The FTSA needs to show state legislators the rising tide that is going to lift all boats. Show them the benefit of an RG or Fantasy Insiders or affiliate marketing company starting in Seattle, rather than New York or Boston or San Francisco or in Europe somewhere. Show them what might happen if a new, innovative site model emerged in WA. It’s one thing to say “you are keeping people from something they love” and another to say “you might be blocking massive economic growth and business formation in your state.” I just think all the arguments I’ve seen to date completely miss the point and fail to understand the state.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    I think it does matter adamo112 when a Senator in this hearing directly ASKS the FSTA guy about if he views DFS as a game of skill. So I believe it is part of discussion. Now I do agree…..showing benefits for the state like local advertising revenue would be helpful as well, but to say it doesn’t matter is not accurate.

  • dp47

    • 2012 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 2012 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Looks like the FSTA needed to heed a bit of their own advice #DontMessItUp

  • adamo112

    Not saying it doesn’t matter – as in “at all.” Never said that, although I can see how it seems that way. And you are right that it’s an important cog and it seems to shape the overall discussion on this issue. It’s just that nobody in the WA state legislature has a strong incentive to really push this or go deep on it. So it will float up through whatever effort the FTSA puts in, legislators will look to other discussions around the country to see what the relevant questions are (skill vs. luck and so forth), and then they will toss out those prepared questions, and that will be that. But rest assured if someone saw real $ to be made for his/her district or for the state as a whole, they would start to look at this differently. Even the “luck vs. skill” thing would take on new meaning. Rather than having to say “this is a skill game, it should be legal!” and force them to see it and change their minds on an issue, THEY would become the ones going “now, as long as we can feel good that there is some skill to this, our state can enjoy the benefits.” Without benefits though, they have to come around on an issue with no real incentive to do so.

    The FTSA needs someone pushing them to find auxiliary economic arguments so they can hand those to legislators on a silver platter.

    And yes, better argumentation on the floor would help too.

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