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  • awesemo

    • 1

      RG Overall Ranking

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    • x5

      2019 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Hey I know that Fanduel is considering changes regarding it’s head to head games and I wanted to make a post here to build more support for a method of restricting players from abuse of head to heads.

    Fanduel made a good step by introducing a 250 game limit for the lower stakes recently, but what I didn’t realize at the time is that this is proportionally less effective at the less popular sports like NHL, where there are fewer contests available. In particular there is one player who exploits the rules more than most. Yesterday I decided to conduct a test where I would post head to head contests at the $5 level and see how many I would have to post before this player would stop scooping every single one of my contests and I could finally play some other players in the head to head games. Here are the results: http://i.imgur.com/BHreNRs.png . I had to post more than 75 games before I could finally get him to stop joining my games and get other people to join them. This is not within the capabilities of an average player.

    I think Fanduel is doing a lot of great things, and introducing some change to restrict head to head abuse could be a great next step to improving the player experience on their site.

  • hotpants

    @SA16 said...

    Has nothing to do with gross quantity of H2H matches.

    At what point does either become relevant?

  • awesemo

    • 1

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    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @SA16 said...

    You are missing an absolutely massive point regarding sample sizes of head to head matches.

    Since Sa is being intentionally vague I’ll just make his point for him. If you are unable to win over 55% of your matches over a sample keep joining their games because you’re just getting unlucky and your opponent is still incompetent despite all evidence to the contrary.

  • SA16

    The point is saying you are say 30-10 vs someone is meaningless without context. Is that 30-10 over 40 different slates with 1 game a day? Or did you go 30-0 vs him one day and 0-10 another day (each using one lineup a day) Massive difference in terms of how significant it may or may not be.

    You could potentially have a 30-10 record against me while actually having beat me on one slate 30 times and lost to me on 10 slates one time so overall you would have beat me on 1/11 slates.

    I have played the same player 3 days in a row now for between 100-200 a day. The first day we played like a couple of 50s – he won. The next day we played a couple of 50s again – I won. Yesterday we played like 10 5s, 25 2s, and a few 20s. He won. Overall he has beat me 2 of 3 days but in terms of games played then he’s probably beat me in like 45 of 50 over those 3 days. Huge difference and that’s from an actual real example.

  • dude_abides7

    @SA16 said...

    The point is saying you are say 30-10 vs someone is meaningless without context. Is that 30-10 over 40 different slates with 1 game a day?

    No…I understood your point. And I understand what are getting at. But “the context” HERE is that Saul called Belt out for being a loser. Belt produced proof that he has owned Saul’s ass to a 75% win rate. All the other shit doesn’t matter. Once again, Saul made a condescending comment toward Belt. The point is you don’t make assumptions about players, more directly your skill vs theirs, and not have statistical proof that are better than that person on a equal weighted playing field. The only metric we have is that H2H record.

  • saulgoodman

    • 276

      RG Overall Ranking

    in the words of walter white, “ya got me”

    i’m bad, you should all scoop my games

  • Warriv

    @saulgoodman said...

    in the words of walter white, “ya got me”

    i’m bad, you should all scoop my games

    I have tried scooping your games on DK before but you limit opponents to 1 game, at least in NFL. Can’t blame you for only wanting to bum hunt and not be hunted, but it should be obvious how FD implementing similar H2H controls is better for the industry long-term.

  • saulgoodman

    • 276

      RG Overall Ranking

    not talking about NFL, nobody wins at NFL. talking about a real sport like NHL

  • dude_abides7

    @saulgoodman said...

    in the words of walter white, “ya got me”

    i’m bad, you should all scoop my games

    I am not claiming you are bad…I think you are a good DFS player. I am claiming you jumped the gun calling someone out as “bad” when possibly they are not….and that maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to do so.

    Seriously, no disrespect intended. Just some friendly advice.

    Regarding the thread – I think what is “best for the industry long term” should be more on the priority list for FD than I think it stands currently. I am basing this on their actions (or lack there of). It is all we really have to go on.

  • MickyD10970

    • 640

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    @DKfromBK said...

    I’m interested in understanding the various opinions on this topic as well. Email me how H2Hs could be the most fun and competitive experience on FanDuel.

    deva@fanduel.com

    Actually kind of insulting. You know the answer. Institute a matchup blocker and a limit to how many times a player can take your games. This is not rocket science, Draftkings figured it out long ago. And yes I did speak with my money, I do not play on Fanduel any longer.

  • njo1987

    @MickyD10970 said...

    Actually kind of insulting. You know the answer. Institute a matchup blocker and a limit to how many times a player can take your games. This is not rocket science, Draftkings figured it out long ago. And yes I did speak with my money, I do not play on Fanduel any longer.

    this

  • Craptor

    Matchup blockers shouldn’t be allowed in any capacity. I do firmly believe that a limiter should be in play though and you can set it so any one person can only take x# of your games. It’s really only the fair way to do things. Why should you be able to block top pros, but be afforded the luxury of allowing a fish to take all your games.

    Being able to block people is pretty unfair to good players, since everyone can just block the 3 best players of a sport (dk) then those 3 players can never join a head to head game. Hows that fair to them? Why should it be more advantageous to be the 4th best player in a sport than the best?

    PS Saul I have a really fun idea for some degenerate soccer DFS gambling, will msg you on the twatter.

  • MickyD10970

    • 640

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    • Ranked #80

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    @Craptor said...

    Matchup blockers shouldn’t be allowed in any capacity. I do firmly believe that a limiter should be in play though and you can set it so any one person can only take x# of your games. It’s really only the fair way to do things. Why should you be able to block top pros, but be afforded the luxury of allowing a fish to take all your games.

    Being able to block people is pretty unfair to good players, since everyone can just block the 3 best players of a sport (dk) then those 3 players can never join a head to head game. Hows that fair to them? Why should it be more advantageous to be the 4th best player in a sport than the best?

    PS Saul I have a really fun idea for some degenerate soccer DFS gambling, will msg you on the twatter.

    Craptor, I am in agreement with you here. Draftkings only lets you block 3 players and as long as the limiter is in place I can live with battling pros for 1 matchup. Where it gets tricky is for those that want to battle at higher stakes. I am pretty sure most (most not all) would prefer to be able to avoid Maxdullary or whatever he calls himself now as well as a few other “top” pros. The top pros can beat each other up and there are plenty of others who want the challenge (see Ryazon) or won’t know about using the limiters. I feel being able to block somewhere between 3 and 10 users is a fair resolution.

  • mckaygod

    BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 0monstertruxrallyman0

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @umaebitz said...

    Hey I know that Fanduel is considering changes regarding it’s head to head games and I wanted to make a post here to build more support for a method of restricting players from abuse of head to heads.

    Fanduel made a good step by introducing a 250 game limit for the lower stakes recently, but what I didn’t realize at the time is that this is proportionally less effective at the less popular sports like NHL, where there are fewer contests available. In particular there is one player who exploits the rules more than most. Yesterday I decided to conduct a test where I would post head to head contests at the $5 level and see how many I would have to post before this player would stop scooping every single one of my contests and I could finally play some other players in the head to head games. Here are the results: http://i.imgur.com/BHreNRs.png . I had to post more than 75 games before I could finally get him to stop joining my games and get other people to join them. This is not within the capabilities of an average player.

    I think Fanduel is doing a lot of great things, and introducing some change to restrict head to head abuse could be a great next step to improving the player experience on their site.

    Seriously, stop whining. By posting 100 games, you challenged me, and it didn’t work out that well for you. People used to scoop all of my games all the time, and I didn’t comfort myself by going on an anonymous online forum to complain. It motivated me to get better. My guess is that you are probably a little immature, so I’ll be sensitive with you.

    It’s not realistic for newbies to ever play a H2H game without 2 lobbies because experienced players snap them up immediately. This is a nonissue with you though because you are clearly not a newbie. I stay away from low level 50/50s and $1/$2 H2H because these are the best places for newbies to gain experience. Note that is completely different from your style of play as you prey upon these sources.

    So your argument is basically that if a new player wants to play you H2H, you would do that all day. But if someone at a higher level of skill wants your H2H game, that suddenly isn’t fair. Grow up.

  • 0monstertruxrallyman0

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Furthermore, you should evaluate why I take your H2Hs. The answer is simple. I have run the numbers and am very comfortable playing anyone H2H at various levels of rake. This has been an insanely profitable strategy for me this NHL season, and I have a proven statistical edge on the field and a bankroll to back that. You are a fish to me, plain and simple irregardless of your experience level. I know this may be incredibly difficult for you to comprehend given your level of maturity, but it’s a fact to me.

    You are ultimately complaining that when you post a H2H, I am playing you rather than someone with less experience or skill than you. Get out of here. You should be embarrassed for masquerading around with this pretense that you want to help the community and x, y z. Anyone who is serious about DFS is not doing it for leisure or a charity – unless they have already made more money than they ever thought possible and genuinely want to improve things. I can think of maybe 2 people like that, and you are clearly a wolf in sheep’s clothing if that’s what you think you are. Your only job at this point is to play by the rules to be the best and most profitable player that you possibly can. I can assure that whining will not get you there.

  • giantsfan12345

    cash game legend

  • awesemo

    • 1

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    • Ranked #1

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    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    In my opinion, there is no dignity in both posting $5000 games and scooping $5 games.

  • DermDerm

    • 2014 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @umaebitz said...

    1/18/2016 Ranked: Top 100 In my opinion, there is no dignity in both posting $5000 games and scooping $5 games.

    Dignity is not something people who are trying to do this for a living care about. They care about making a buck in the easiest manner possible, and if that means scooping someone who they feel they are superior at creating lineups against, than that is what they’ll do until that ability is taken away from them by the sites.

  • BeltWieldindad

    Glad to see this thread has been necro’d. Fanduel not having the ability to matchup block is archaic, and has definitely been a main factor in some users switching over from fanduel to draftkings (not to mention DK already has a superior product in NHL, NBA AND NFL). If somebody wanted to play somebody for high stakes they would challenge them to a 215 or a 535, not post 80 5 dollar h2hs. Personally I dont believe that either site should have a blocker that bans other players from playing you, but I think DK’s blocker should be tweaked so that you can only play 1 h2h at all levels against another opponent that night(instead of 1 h2h per level), and implemented at FD as well.

  • dude_abides7

    @0monstertruxrallyman0 said...

    This has been an insanely profitable strategy for me this NHL season, and I have a proven statistical edge on the field and a bankroll to back that. You are a fish to me, plain and simple irregardless of your experience level. I know this may be incredibly difficult for you to comprehend given your level of maturity, but it’s a fact to me.

    The State AG’s will be happy to read this.

    Look….I agree with you, as a DFS brethren who things people should be rewarded for being good. No participation trophies. You either put in the time, or you don’t. Ultimately, don’t post in the lobby if you want to control who you play. But your post could be seen and taken a few ways and they are not all positive .

    What I think you are missing is simple – The issue is not about me or you or some guy complaining about getting scooped. It is about the long term survival of DFS. I want this medium to be here for all of us to enjoy a year from now, 10 years from now. Like many here, it has taken a love for sports (me specifically hockey) and re-energized the way I felt about the sport when I was a kid. Money and all else aside, that alone is a positive thing.

    But I think it behooves DFS pros like you to maybe “care” a little more about the fish you love to violate. Not because you morally obligated to, not because you actually have their interests in mind, but simply because the future of DFS remaining legal may depend on it. We are all on this boat.

    You don’t need to be greedy to make a lot of money in ‘this thing of ours’ and you certainly need to care about the ecosystem as the whole. Otherwise you are just a predator, exactly the type of individuals these govt scumbags are gonna want to point to when furthering their grossly exaggerated claims.

  • 0monstertruxrallyman0

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @dude_abides7 said...

    The State AG’s will be happy to read this.

    Sorry, could you please clarify this point? My impression was that the AG’s case is entirely based DFS not being a game of skill, which my statement pretty strongly refutes.

    I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with you on long term survival of DFS. I just don’t think there is any expression of a H2H lobby (blockers etc.) that is not going to be dominated by a select number of people unless you create multiple lobbies based on experience. If you are new, you should either play pools or 50/50s. There is just too much adverse selection in any lobby. It’s not just me. If you sit and watch an active NFL lobby on Sunday morning, any new name gets snagged immediately when they post. That’s just the reality of having money on the line, and there is nothing that a new user could do to block the 100s of experienced players that would love to take his H2H.

    I also don’t think win rates are much better in 50/50s and pools for new people, it’s just much less transparent how the money is being distributed while the vig is higher. It’s a perceptions game though, which is important.

    The real issue is vig. If you are a new player, play one week of NBA, starting with $100, with a 50% chance of winning each game, your EV after one week is $47. So you lost more than half your money having even odds to vig. I understand the expansionary plans, but the companies are incredibly mismanaged and went way over their skis using growth as an excuse not to watch their costs and be profitable. The companies grew far too fast and many of the people in senior positions are incredibly under qualified and downright inept. Who wanted to work at a random fantasy sports startup in 2011? Those are the same people running the company, not exactly titans of industry. We can decry sharks all we want, but the real issue is the companies running more efficiently and vig coming down for the long term survival of DFS to really have a shot. Sharks variable 5-10% edge is kinda meaningless in the context of static 10%+ vig for a company that takes no risk and has an extremely low cost structure if ran by someone more competent.

    If DK/FD really cared about the long term strategic plan of the industry – they would have merged years ago and then dropped fees to make it impossible to extremely difficult for new entrants into the industry while simultaneously saving a very large annuity in an advertising piss war. The user base would also be far larger than the critical mass required for another start-up site. Instead, we have this uncompetitive, fragmented industry with an extremely high cost structure running inefficiently.

  • dude_abides7

    @0monstertruxrallyman0 said...

    My impression was that the AG’s case is entirely based DFS not being a game of skill, which my statement pretty strongly refutes.

    No…the AG does admit the there is clearly skill, but that it still represents gambling. But that is no way constitutes his entire argument. He focuses a good deal of time on player protections and is arguing that DFS sites are using false messaging, unfair practice, and a lack of transparency to create a predatory environment that takes advantage of new players. Your statement, albeit completely fair, fosters his exact sentiment. Whether you believe it or not, you can’t survive as a DFS player without a steady in-flow of new users, because the sites can’t survive long term without that type of consistent growth. You can’t clean out the pond and expect the fish to just come back. The amount of “fishing” you do needs to be controlled. I am dismayed that you don’t understand that.

    There needs to be at least some semblance of a ‘fair playing field’ in order for the States to back off many of their claims. This may disrupt your personal play system to some degree, but you need to understand it is for the better good of DFS and your future wallet.

    To say you don’t care, I am here to make money….that in many ways makes you the problem. Once again, you are doing nothing wrong except maybe not understanding the long term implications of your position and any other experienced players that share your attitude.

  • 0monstertruxrallyman0

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Agreed. I’m on board with regulation, but that’s ultimately the regulators job. I don’t even think it’s the site’s job as the correlation to long term profits requires a lot of assumptions that you are making how it relates to long term survival. it’s not an issue of legality as it is long term survival. The AG can only rule on legality issues on DFS, and the only questionable issues here are on how the sites market themselves, not the structure of games.

    But as a player, that’s not our responsibility. A responsible player will do everything that he can within the rules to maximize profits, and game selection is a very important part of that. It’s an unrealistic Utopian thought to think that thousands of individual players will curb their own behavior to create the ideal structure that you want long term.

    I also think the first few iterations of regulation will REALLY hurt profits of the companies and players to the point that I am projecting being done with DFS when that happens.

    I absolutely understand what’s going in – it’s called the tragedy of the commons in economics.

    “The tragedy of the commons is a situation where individuals acting independently and rationally according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the best interests of the whole by depleting some common resource.”

  • billsfan777

    • 48

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    • Ranked #35

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    • 2015 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    • Blogger of the Month

    Monstertruxrallyman isn’t the person at fault here. In Fanduel’s rules he has the ability to scoop everyone’s games. If he feels an edge, by all means he should do it. I would do the same thing in his position, despite it being bad for the long term survival of DFS. The fact that fanduel permits this is the real issue here.

  • BeltWieldindad

    @0monstertruxrallyman0 said...

    Agreed. I’m on board with regulation, but that’s ultimately the regulators job. I don’t even think it’s the site’s job as the correlation to long term profits requires a lot of assumptions that you are making how it relates to long term survival. it’s not an issue of legality as it is long term survival. The AG can only rule on legality issues on DFS, and the only questionable issues here are on how the sites market themselves, not the structure of games.

    But as a player, that’s not our responsibility. A responsible player will do everything that he can within the rules to maximize profits, and game selection is a very important part of that. It’s an unrealistic Utopian thought to think that thousands of individual players will curb their own behavior to create the ideal structure that you want long term.

    I also think the first few iterations of regulation will REALLY hurt profits of the companies and players to the point that I am projecting being done with DFS when that happens.

    Agreed, I don’t think the pressure should be on the big time spenders such as yourself to self-regulate the h2h market. We’re all looking for the “easiest” games possible, and if youre confident enough in your lu and have a high enough BR to buyout the lobby more power to you. I do like having the game limiter on DK for when i choose to use it though, if i wanted to play somebody for 200 dollars i would have posted a 200 dollar game or joined their 200, not posted 10 different 20 dollar h2hs. Thus I would like to see some sort of MU blocker that prevents taking multiple h2hs from one person as i talked about earlier, which would admittedly eat into the profits of someone like you who gobbles up every h2h they can, and thus hurt the sites’ profits because they dont get as much rake from you. Long-term it would help keep more fish in the pond which could help grow some of these less popular sports like NHL, CFB, CBB, etc. instead of the same 10 or so guys playing cash games against each other every day.

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