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  • dictator_teddy

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    I’ve been playing at Yahoo since they rolled out the DFS, and have noticed certain accounts always have identical lineups. I have tracked them pretty closely in H2H and 50/50 games, and just wanted others to be aware of this. I would not make these accusations unless I was very certain of it. I understand that sharing lineups is not against the rules, but wanted others to be aware of this. The following accounts have identical lineups 99% of the time. Sometimes, there will be one player that is different, but all three accounts almost always have the exact same 8 players. Not sure if this is already common knowledge, but just wanted others to be aware of this.

    birdwings / Daut44 / dihac

  • awesemo

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      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Daut, you were saying that you played poker. How do you feel about the cartel for H2H sngs on Poker Stars and do you think it’s appropriate for a player to take all of the action of other players so they can have the lobby to themselves in DFS?

  • petteytheft89

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    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

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    My issue is this:

    About 1-2 months ago, a clear friend of MIR (who I randomly knew IRL) was sitting me HU at high stakes out of nowhere with MIR lineups. To my knowledge, he was actually sitting lots of players at HU. I don’t really care to play MIR HU nor do other people I’m sure. It smelled really bad to me and looked very shady. I would have never found this out had he not been an IRL friend of mine. In fact when I mentioned MIR’s name, he stopped talking to me. Not long after, he stopped playing completely and I haven’t seen him since.

    Today, another reg came to me and said that there are more players than you mentioned that you share with. This was before I read this thread or knew of it. He mentioned a couple of other guys that do not play anything but 3mans and HU. This would make sense from your teams standpoint as it’d cover more bases (especially in HU). I do not know if this is true or not as I have not checked over your teams.

    As for kings cup, I’m happy that you two aren’t in it. Not from a standpoint of skill (since you’re apparently the best HU player) but just because it’d make me really nervous being in your guys group. Why wouldn’t two guys who share lineups on a daily basis help each other out if getting out of the group depended on it? There’s just no way it’d be fair for the other guys in the group and it’d put you two in an awkward spot as well.

    Hope you can clear some of this up for me.

  • petteytheft89

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    I will include that I see nothing wrong with him and MIR having similar lineups on a daily basis. They are a team and of course both will want to play the best lineup. I have people I work with as well (although we don’t share lineups). I have no issue with that.

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @umaebitz said...

    Daut, you were saying that you played poker. How do you feel about the cartel for H2H sngs on Poker Stars and do you think it’s appropriate for a player to take all of the action of other players so they can have the lobby to themselves in DFS?

    Don’t know specifically what you are referring to in poker, I assume one of the best HU SNG players has multiple accounts controlling the lobby? But one of the things I love about DFS is the lack of a staking aspect, people all seem to have their own action while in poker most players are broke and staked for things. And no, I don’t think someone should basically pay someone else or allow that player to keep a small percentage to enter his lineup more and have a greater portion of the lobby control, just like poker should be one account per player.

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @petteytheft89 said...

    My issue is this:

    About 1-2 months ago, a clear friend of MIR (who I randomly knew IRL) was sitting me HU at high stakes out of nowhere with MIR lineups. To my knowledge, he was actually sitting lots of players at HU. I don’t really care to play MIR HU nor do other people I’m sure. It smelled really bad to me and looked very shady. I would have never found this out had he not been an IRL friend of mine. In fact when I mentioned MIR’s name, he stopped talking to me. Not long after, he stopped playing completely and I haven’t seen him since.

    Today, another reg came to me and said that there are more players than you mentioned that you share with. This was before I read this thread or knew of it. He mentioned a couple of other guys that do not play anything but 3mans and HU. This would make sense from your teams standpoint as it’d cover more bases (especially in HU). I do not know if this is true or not as I have not checked over your teams.

    As for kings cup, I’m happy that you two aren’t in it. Not from a standpoint of skill (since you’re apparently the best HU player) but just because it’d make me really nervous being in your guys group. Why wouldn’t two guys who share lineups on a daily basis help each other out if getting out of the group depended on it? There’s just no way it’d be fair for the other guys in the group and it’d put you two in an awkward spot as well.

    Hope you can clear some of this up for me.

    I think you are referring to Markus? We all have friends we help along the way. For instance, I have a good college buddy who plays DFS from time to time (richnash on FD, Ken on yahoo), plays low stakes, probably hasn’t played for over the past month, but when he does he will ask me for help on skype. We are super busy in the few hours leading up to lock, so usually we don’t even have time to talk to anyone, but sometimes I’ll tell him my favorite plays that day, who to avoid, and he will register some low stakes stuff. I don’t have any of his action, I just help a friend out who asks for some advice.

    Markus was doing the same thing to MiR, he told Markus to only play low stakes and avoid our contests and not actively sit people, Markus got greedy, blocked our names, and sat a bunch of high stakes stuff. Someone pointed it out to us and MiR stopped helping him altogether. It’s hard to keep information completely contained, especially when your friends are interested and DFS enthusiasts and look up to you, and you feel like a dick for ignoring them and want to help your friends out, sometimes things leak out, and then those players can share with others, the whole thing is messy and really hard to avoid and once info gets out it spreads virally.

    I did a lot of staking in poker, still have a few active high stakes horses, but in DFS I have no action on any other players and I won’t stake anyone because of the scalability of action. Only indirect action I have is my 4 referrals: I have aboveandbeyond’s referral, mig123 (one of my best friends for 10 years and poker staking partner), genius28 from poker (he rarely plays DFS and has a name like aaabbbccc), and my buddy Ken I mentioned in this post.

  • petteytheft89

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    I just hope you can understand how people like myself would find it weird that a guy would blindly take 15k+ of action a night on someone’s lineup when he wasn’t a successful DFS guy himself. It looks bad to the rest of us and makes us wonder the true intentions. I appreciate you clearing it up. Best of luck.

    EDIT: Reread your post and it was actually not Markus who’s account this was. It was another guy who is friends with Markus and MIR.

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    One thing I’d like to add regarding not being in the same games: NBA isn’t like NFL, it’s hard to get action, and when you don’t play low stakes there is going to be some overlap. In NFL we can always avoid the small 50/50s and get as much HU action as we want, plenty of larger entry 50/50s, but in NBA I personally would like to have about $40k in play each day, but how do I do that?

    We are currently in a war with maxdalury and I play him every day, but I don’t want to have half my action against a legend who is one of the best DFS players ever. I play on other sites like fantasydraft, but due to loose pricing it’s so easy to make the nut lineups there that the edges are really small and you don’t want to play that big, and adding even more sites takes away attention from the important ones.

    HU action on main sites is mostly dried up by this point in the season, you have guys like cheddabisque and brutalmaster who monopolize the 3 man lobby on FD, and when the contest fills with 2 pros they don’t want to play against they unregister because for some unknown reason FD has not disallowed unregistering from full contests yet so hard to get money in there with people unregistering, so if we want to get more in play when we have completely separate bankrolls, we basically either have to fire off against the best players in the world HU (not enticing) or we have to sit in some of the same 50/50s. Avoiding 10 mans is easy enough, there aren’t that many, but when they get larger in the 20+ range, you just can’t avoid it. Some of the issues are easily solvable in theory, but when you try to implement them in practice it gets tricky and there is some overlap, particularly at higher stakes.

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @petteytheft89 said...

    I just hope you can understand how people like myself would find it weird that a guy would blindly take 15k+ of action a night on someone’s lineup when he wasn’t a successful DFS guy himself. It looks bad to the rest of us and makes us wonder the true intentions. I appreciate you clearing it up. Best of luck.

    EDIT: Reread your post and it was actually not Markus who’s account this was. It was another guy who is friends with Markus and MIR.

    I believe the account was Sean something? I don’t know the guy, I think Markus and him were playing on that name to further avoid our detection, shady stuff.

    I understand completely where you are coming from, and know it is frustrating, also frustrating for us to deal with not only because of these players taking advantage of other people trying to have fun and make their livings, and not only because of the time it takes out from doing our own research to help someone out at no benefit, but then nice gestures with good intentions on our part reflect poorly back on us when our lineups are now flooding the site. Some of our friends are either rich from poker, sharp sports bettors, etc, and if they get a hold of information they just push their perceived edges. It’s really hard to police stuff like this, it’s hard enough for us to even police our own friends, cannot imagine the sites trying to do it. It’s just a problem that DFS has to deal with that poker doesn’t.

    Poker is played in the moment and requires attention at specific times, I can’t play Markus’ hand for him because I am doing other things. But in DFS you have hours to work out a specific perfect lineup, and some of the exchanges are as simple as:

    Markus: “hey look at this lineup, do you like these players?”
    MiR: “i like it, we think D russell and kemba are a must play and we prefer melo/len over deng/whiteside, but lineup looks pretty good”

    From one line of chat aimed at helping he is able to completely piece together our FD lineup, and has the bankroll necessary to fire off for himself. The best I can do is try and keep the amount of information I give out to even my best friends to a minimum, but you do feel like a dick for not helping friends/family out, and then once out the info spreads to friends of friends, friends of friends of friends, etc.

    The only long term solution I see to problems like this is to change all HU to a draft format: randomize who picks first, then snake out a team with 1 other player. This format would also fix single players from flooding the entire lobby because drafting takes time. There are tons of problems with stuff like this though, I guess if one of your players is injured you can replace him with someone else? But how does the order of replacement work? I really don’t know, just spitballing here, but information is so accessible in DFS and so tough to stop it from being spread.

    anyway, time to get to work, GL everyone, and I hope my posts have cleared up things from my side, and again apologies for everything.

  • awesemo

    • 1

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    I’m going to just be blunt. Right now in the lobby from $10+, the only options to play in head to heads are Dihac, Brandon Schaefer, Daut44, Makeitrain84, all of who you have mentioned that you collaborate with, and Corwin, who has been unmentioned so far. I keep posting contests and one of these players keeps taking them, so it looks like you guys are trying to monopolize the lobby, and to top it off, you claim to all use the same lineups on a regular basis.

    This action is going to antagonize many of the people who would otherwise support what you’re doing, including myself. It’s bad for the site because it will turn off players who enter multiple head to heads versus different people and face the same lineup, and it will lead to players like me putting more action on other sites instead of yahoo, hurting their bottom line and reducing the number of options people have to choose from.

    I believe actions speak a lot louder than words, and it’s offputting to me that you are coming to the forums trying to pay lip service and at the same time your crew is trying to monopolize Yahoo head to head games, which aside from the guaranteeds are about the only contests that run afaik.

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @umaebitz said...

    I’m going to just be blunt. Right now in the lobby from $10+, the only options to play in head to heads are Dihac, Brandon Schaefer, Daut44, Makeitrain84, all of who you have mentioned that you collaborate with, and Corwin, who has been unmentioned so far. I keep posting contests and one of these players keeps taking them, so it looks like you guys are trying to monopolize the lobby, and to top it off, you claim to all use the same lineups on a regular basis.

    This action is going to antagonize many of the people who would otherwise support what you’re doing, including myself. It’s bad for the site because it will turn off players who enter multiple head to heads versus different people and face the same lineup, and it will lead to players like me putting more action on other sites instead of yahoo, hurting their bottom line and reducing the number of options people have to choose from.

    I believe actions speak a lot louder than words, and it’s offputting to me that you are coming to the forums trying to pay lip service and at the same time your crew is trying to monopolize Yahoo head to head games, which aside from the guaranteeds are about the only contests that run afaik.

    Noticed this before leaving, will address.

    Again, we don’t have each other’s action, we don’t sit against good friends, just ends up being us in the lobby if we sit other people, but we never knowingly take a -EV spot losing rake just to clear the lobby. I looked at your profile, you are AlexB on yahoo, I played you yesterday for a few reasons: it was MiR’s day to play the 10 man doubles so I was trying to get more yahoo action by playing regs, I haven’t played much against you before and didn’t know if your lineups were consistently strong, and I thought the lineup I had was the absolute nuts and nothing else was close so I wanted to play people with it. I also sat agentagent for same reason. Yesterday I had $2200 in total action on yahoo. a $109 vs you, a $109 vs agentagent, agentagent sat my $1k because he was mad about me taking his game, and then the rest of the action was in the $109 and lower buyin 50/50s. There were other regs that played yahoo too that quit because of the lack of action, not because we scooped their games: Kyle cannon, draftcheat (Peter), Max, etc, we didn’t push these guys out, we just sat every day, took the action we got, and they thought it wasn’t worth their time to play yahoo.

    So what do you think I should personally do? Stop sitting HU on yahoo? Stop sitting people I don’t know well when I love the lineup and want more action and can get it at stakes where the rake is lower (109+)? Break off relationships with people? I completely understand your frustration, and I swear I am not trying to step on your toes and prevent you from earning a living, it’s just a more complicated problem than that.

    All I can say is if you make strong lineups consistently, I won’t sit you, same as I treat regs on other sites. Also if me and MiR/“birdwings” find multiple lineups we like, we will try and run different ones there as well. But I don’t think regs should necessarily just avoid each other, I think they should all be playing each other until they silently mutually agree there is no edge to be had.

  • awesemo

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      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I think the answer is very clear. If you want to play someone in a head to head game, then just join one of their games. I don’t think I shouldn’t be able to play anyone else in games just because I don’t know you guys. From the lobby right now, it appears that anyone who’s not part of your crew has their games taken very quickly, to say the least.

  • Mphst18

    Yeah the more I read the more i feel worse.

    “i only work with birdwings and MIR, WELL except for sometimes all these other people but once they start doing stuff that could link them to me I denounce them”

    We never sit 2 in 5 person or all 3 in 10 person, well except for when it does happen”

    Also why is that once these guys don’t get their way they scream that the contests are losing their best people by the uninvolvement of that party? If you were so good you guys could have had the one and two seed with your OPTIMAL lineups.

    You know who else kicks and screams besides children, guilty people.

  • Sleepyfloyd16

    After reading through all of these posts, I believe I understand everyone and their motivations infinitely better, and feel so much closer to you all. I think I can go as far as to say that I now consider you all very good friends. Now that we’re all buds, can you all send me your emails/phone #s so I can hit you up for a little friendly lineup advice? I promise not to do anything that will reflect poorly on you, Daut44, with any advice you throw my way; I’m a stand-up guy. Thanks, buddies!

  • Daut44

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @Sleepyfloyd16 said...

    After reading through all of these posts, I believe I understand everyone and their motivations infinitely better, and feel so much closer to you all. I think I can go as far as to say that I now consider you all very good friends. Now that we’re all buds, can you all send me your emails/phone #s so I can hit you up for a little friendly lineup advice? I promise not to do anything that will reflect poorly on you, Daut44, with any advice you throw my way; I’m a stand-up guy. Thanks, buddies!

    play ryan anderson if anthony davis is out

  • Avgplayer

    I say “ just build better lineups”

  • Sleepyfloyd16

    @Daut44 said...

    play ryan anderson if anthony davis is out

    Thanks, bestie!

  • jimmyrad

    I gotta give you props for explaining the situation, and I appreciate that you guys have some kind of controls in place, at least at 3/5/10 mans. I mean 3/10 is really being greedy pigs, so I’m glad you guys don’t go that route.

    That said this friend of a friend stuff and not being able to say no to any friends is just bizarre. You guys are running a business FFS. You don’t owe any rando beer bros your trade secrets.

  • haze28

    I’m an average joe with a job and a family. Stuff like this makes me less likely to spend money on DFS and less likely to care about the future of DFS.

    I hope all of the “pros” doing shady shit have fun playing for each other’s bankroll when the rest of us give up.

  • Shipmymoney

    • 68

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    • Ranked #11

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    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @jimmyrad said...

    I gotta give you props for explaining the situation, and I appreciate that you guys have some kind of controls in place, at least at 3/5/10 mans. I mean 3/10 is really being greedy pigs, so I’m glad you guys don’t go that route.

    That said this friend of a friend stuff and not being able to say no to any friends is just bizarre. You guys are running a business FFS. You don’t owe any rando beer bros your trade secrets.

    It’s not really that bizarre. When your friends know you make a lot more money at DFS than them and they message you asking who you like that night, it does feel pretty dickish telling them no

  • deactivated60279

    I don’t know why this forum hasn’t blown up. I think these guys and their friends are shady as hell, greedier than Charles Ponzi, and I feel this stuff kills Dfs. Furthermore, it messes with guys like Rayofhope who try and not take advantage of their collaboration by playing on only one account (at least that’s my understanding). I think the major sites need to adjudicate rules that prevent this from continuing. How much has DFS become a good ole boys network?

  • dictator_teddy

    • 179

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    • 2017 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    @Daut44 said...

    So what do you think I should personally do? Stop sitting HU on yahoo? Stop sitting people I don’t know well when I love the lineup and want more action and can get it at stakes where the rake is lower (109+)? Break off relationships with people? I completely understand your frustration, and I swear I am not trying to step on your toes and prevent you from earning a living, it’s just a more complicated problem than that.

    I totally understand why someone who plays DFS as a primary source of income would want to gain every single edge possible, and try to maximize winnings now since no one knows how much longer DFS will be around for. Assani explained this concept in his vlog, and I totally understand that mentality, especially with his personal experience from his poker career.

    However, the issue is that the more you exploit and try to bend the rules of DFS, the worse it is for DFS as a whole, and you end up hurting the long term sustainability of DFS. The average Joe may not care about the long term sustainability of DFS, especially if they are not winning players. The really sharp pros who are big winners may or may not care; some have already won enough where they can live comfortably off their winnings for an extended period of time until the next big thing comes along. But there is a large portion of people who do not want to see DFS being outlawed due to what the common DFS player would consider shady or makes the game not as fun. Even if it is not outlawed for these reasons, it will definitely deter new players from joining which will just dry up the player pool.

  • Mphst18

    Well said.

    1. You have you people who want DFS to continue forever who don’t try to collude or game the system.

    2. You have your People who are trying to take advantage of every rule they can bend or make cloudy to maximize as much money as they can make in the short term as they don’t care if DFS continues or not.

    3. You have the sites who really don’t care about the long term continuence of DFS they only care about getting to the IPO (while getting as much rake as possible) and really are probably indifferent to if DFS continues beoynd that point.

    The problem is since the sites want to get to IPO to get their sweat equity they are willing to allow all these individuals to continue to “bend, collude,angle shoot” etc as they need their business and rake. It is very easy for the sites to pull historical lineups and do a correlation to see who is playing together and who routinely sits in 3/5/10 people contests as a team but they won’t cause they can’t afford to lose theiur business and know the other sites may allow it.

    I doubt most of the individuals woking at the sites will continue to work their once they get their equity out, do you relaly think they want to deal with all the headaches for just a salary with limited upside.

  • Mphst18

    Also individulas would be naive to not see the correlation between all these guys making lots of money came from the poker world where they figured out how to exploit that system until it was caught to now exploiting this system until it is caught.

    Not saying all the poker guys who turned to DFS are exploting it but you have your ones who are.

  • ShowMeTheMoney

    • 2012 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @DanielHaight said...

    Hey guys, just want to step in here and say that we are currently investigating this situation, and I appreciate all the thoughtful comments.

    @DanielHaight
    Has anything been officially released regarding your investigation? I understand according to your TOS, that if the Daut44 group are in fact different individuals as they claim, there isn’t anything in the TOS currently that states that is against the terms. However, why was there an investigation conducted? Why haven’t we heard anything regarding that investigation? Is it still ongoing?

    My thoughts on the situation echo many of the sentiments in this thread. I think it does hurt the ecosystem having 3,4,5 individuals play the same 20 man 50/50’s with the same lineup. Especially when those individuals as a group are cleaning up the contests. Any new player will not keep depositing after they notice this trend after a couple of days. I think that you at Yahoo have also noticed this hurting your overall entries into your NBA contests. As the past month has gone by you have already shrunk all of your contests considerably. I understand that the few sharks that you have are important to you, but in the long run, is it worth it? I wouldn’t mind hearing a statement of any kind from a rep at Yahoo. Is this team of sharks going to continue to run the show? If that is the case then I’m pretty bearish on the sustainability of the Yahoo DFS game.

  • DanielHaight

    • Yahoo Representative

    @ShowMeTheMoney Nothing to release yet. I can say that we highly value the integrity and fairness of all our contests across season long and daily fantasy, and we’re taking this issue very seriously. Please stay tuned as I hope to be able to share more details shortly.

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